Bonus Barbie convo + a fun update
radical love letters | talking Barbie with Margeaux Feldman
Dear ones,
At this point you might actually be at your Barbie limit, but just in case you’re not, here is a bonus conversation I had with the brilliant Margeaux Feldman of the
newsletter. We had a chat about our take on the Barbie backlash.You might also know Margeaux from their hilarious, smart, poignant, and extremely relatable IG meme page @softcore_trauma. On Tuesday, August 8th, I’ll be doing an Instagram takeover on their page, featuring my very first batch of memes on a few of my favorite things (trauma healing! kink! birding! feminism!), and an all-day Ask Me Anything. Tune in and ask a question if you want!
Hope you have a great week. <3
TRANSCRIPT
*As always, transcripts of me talking are a hot mess because I frequently start sentences and switch thoughts halfway through. I hope the chaos of my syntax is bearable!
Margeaux: Um, hi, friend.
Raechel: Hi, friend.
M: For those of you who are just like, “I recognize one of these voices,” maybe or maybe you don't recognize either of our voices, because I don't really know like, I guess you I think, Raechel, like, more often on your Instagram will use your voice like in your stories that it's not.
R: It’s hit and –, like it's been up and down. There have been, I think, months and months and months where I haven't but yeah, I will occasionally hit that little record button.
M: Yeah. So anyways, yeah, we're here. Who’re you? [laughter] I’m Margeaux. Yeah, we thought we would just kind of like, you know, introduce ourselves/each other, just so you all kind of like know, again, who you're who you're listening to, if you're not familiar with one of us. And yeah, we'll share I guess, like why we're here having the conversation that we want to have.
R: Yep. Sounds good.
M: Great. Do you want to go first, Raechel?
R: Sure. So I'm Raechel, Raechel Anne Jolie. I'm a writer and a teacher and some other things. My newsletter is Radical Love Letters. Some of you are hearing this because you already subscribe. But if you are here because you subscribe to Margeaux’s newsletter, why don’t you subscribe to both of our newsletters? That'd be neat. Yeah, and we're really stoked to be talking to you all about Barbie today. And that's, that's what I'll say. How about you?
M: Yeah, I mean, similar to Raechel. So I’m Margeaux, my pronouns are they/them, and you're doing she/they pronouns?
R: Yeah she/they!
M: Yeah, cool. Yeah, also a writer and like educator, specifically, you know, both Raechel and I have similar experiences in academia, we both come from, like academic backgrounds. We're both also, like, grew up working class poor and like, still identify as that, you know, through our adult years. And, you know, as you'll see, we love thinking about similar topics to like, yes, if you're subscribed to like my newsletter, which is CARESCAPES, like, you will love the stuff that Raechel writes. So, you know, we'll include the link to like, you know, make sure that you're subscribed to like both. Yeah, and I guess, you know, yeah, those are maybe the aspects of myself that I'll share.
I want to like maybe like, just share with folks like how we even like came into each other's lives because I like, just love an origin story. So my friend Andi, who runs an account called @acafemmic, like academic but like the word feminine it will also link to their to her insta because it's great. Yeah, Andi had, like, shared on her stories that she was reading your book. Rust Belt Femme. And I was like, oh, like, you know, Andi reads good stuff. So like, what is this book? And then I was like, Oh, my God, I like, need to know this person. And I need to like read this book. And I think I'd like DMed you on Instagram.
R: That sounds right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
M: You go ahead.
R: No, you go ahead.
M: Yeah, and then I was like, Yeah, I really want to read your book. And I think I was like, super broke at that moment in time. And you graciously were just like, let me send you a copy for free which was like, I mean, that's what you know, working class poor folks do for each other. And I loved it. Loved your writing so so much, and then was like, okay, how do I become friends with this person? And here we are. Do you want to add to that origin story?
R: Yeah, I actually hadn't remembered the initial Instagram messaging but now it's coming back to me and yeah, that's that's super sweet. Anyway, yeah. So I was delighted to discover, as most people who are like “your book sounds like it would really resonate with my life,” usually end up thinking that person is great, because we have these affinities. So I was delighted to discover you and maybe I was actually already – did you have you had, did you have a more public page? You had a pretty big page at that point already? It's quite possible I was already following you in sort of the ways that people follow people online.
M: I probably had around like 20k followers.
R: I think I was probably already following you. But then, like, with the personal connection I was able to do like a deeper dive on all of your amazing work and ordered a bunch of your zines right away. And just yeah, like totally connected with your brain and your vibe and knew that we were going to be buds. And it's been so awesome to have the privilege of like close reading your book that's coming soon. And that was just yeah, it's incredible you have, I love the connections that your brain makes. I love that we both are invested in understanding our lives through theory, and it's just been such a lovely, lovely way to connect so. I’m glad we're here.
M: Yeah, I just yeah, the magic of finding your humans through the internet, like never ceases to amaze me. Um, yeah, I could just go on and on, but will like, you know, I'm sure we'll just be gushy about each other throughout this because that's just like, how, how we roll? Um, yeah, so, you know, for context for folks, I knew that Raechel was going to see Barbie. I was also very excited about Barbie. And you know, and then as I knew that, you were starting to write about it for your newsletter, I was just like, oh my god, can we sit down and record a conversation about this, because I also want to write about Barbie. And so that's why we're here doing this because, and I think both of us, you know, sort of like, I don't know, if I'll use the word annoyed for myself, and you can speak for your, your feelings about this. But like, I was very annoyed by the like, kind of more critical conversation of the film. After I saw it, and just wanted to have a more nuanced conversation about the movie, and its failing is as well as, like, the things that I found really joyful and really radical and really like, like, like a big deal, like worth celebrating about it. So I know that you've like you already published your newsletter, I'm going to write up mine, like after this conversation. But yeah, maybe just like as a jumping off point. You know, maybe you can share a little bit around, like, how you felt around like the critical conversation. As someone who loves the movie and like, you know, maybe we can both talk about the shit that we loved about it and see where that takes us.
R: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think when I when I started to sort of hear the backlash, I had a similar reaction to you… like, sort of like duh, like of course it’s not gonna be a radical feminist sort of presentation—-radical feminist feminist with a radical lens not not to be confused with radical feminist TERF/SWERF sort of people—-but there's not gonna be like a radical political film. Because it's Mattel and Warner Brothers. So it was sort of like “Yeah.”
And then to see the ways that I think the backlash very quickly entagled itself with femmephobia when for me like my like, overwhelming excitement was just being like this like, absurd like, blast of femininity on my Instagram, on advertisements, finally, I was just like, “Femininity!!”. I wasn't like, oh, this Barbie movie looks like the most feminist thing in the world. I was like, this look like just like them femmeness. We can talk about Barbie sexuality, but like….I don't believe in hierarchy. So I'm not the queen of femme or like the, the sort of dictator of femme, but I'll often be like, ‘Okay, honorary femme status’ for the straight person or the like non-queer person. But yeah, regardless of her sexuality, like Barbieland gets an honorary femme status for sure from me. So I was just like, so stoked about that and like really just enjoying the sort of like, collective excitement around it. And then yeah, this sort of like, this isn't you know—-the feminist politics are bad in this. I was like, Oh, of course, they're like going to be kind of boring. And also though, as I know that maybe you want and elaborate on like, boring and also like, how many other films are actually saying “patriarchy”? Like boring and also like, for where we're at – you know, and maybe you can take it from there like and sort of how….
M: Yeah, so yeah, it's just sort of like recap, in case you haven't read Raechel's newsletter, you haven't been seeing, like, the critical sort of feedback around the film as like, you know, originally, you were saying was just like, you know, like a lot of people talking about, like, the white feminism as a film; a lot of people talking about, like, you know, disappointment with how it wasn't really explicitly critiquing capitalism; um, you know, and then like tying that in with, like, racial capitalism; you know, there was like, a joke in like, the movie about, like, Indigenous communities getting smallpox and dying, which was like, yeah, like, that's not something, it –
R: Yeah, just a dumb joke.
M: Yeah, ya know, like, someone should have, like, edited that out of there. So, you know, they're like, all of the, like, critiques are like real and valid. And I so get the, like, desire for us to be in some like utopian place beyond, just like saying, like, the patriarchy is bad. And, you know, if you saw any of the posts, you know, where people were, like, like, on the left, were engaging with, like, the rights like critiques of the movie, being anti-man, and like, you know, trying to make everyone gay, it's like, we're not beyond this, like, this film, is actually so much more radical than the people on the left would want to give it credit for, because we are still living in a world where these are the kinds of commentary that are coming out of the right.
And, you know, and, and from men as well as women. Like seeing, like, women critiquing the film for being like, you know, man hating, which actually, if you see the movie, like, that's not at all what is happening, like what, you know, and I think Barbie obviously, like, needed, you know, I was really glad that she kind of took accountability for the ways that she was like, sort of taking Ken for granted and like, you know, being dismissive of him and his needs in their like, relationship. But overall, like, the film was like, in no way talking about, like men sucking, you know, you know, and we need to dismiss all men. It's like, you know, under the logic of patriarchy, like, Yeah, men kind of suck and like, but also they are being harmed by patriarchy. Like, this isn't, you know, something that's only impacting like, women, and I'm, you know, using, you know, very binary gendered terms here, because, like, that is the sort of, like currency of the movie. You know, and as someone who's non-binary, of course, I wanted, you know, more like, you know, transness, more like, you know, fucking with gender, but I actually think there are lots of ways that the movie actually did fuck with gender that we're, we're not seeing.
R: Yeah.
M: Yeah, maybe I'll like pause there.
R: Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think I echo all that. I think getting just like a little bit more about the—-I might contradict myself a little bit because I'm fully with you that I was like annoyed at the sort of like, yeah, sort of leftist 101 sort of response to it. And also, like, I literally teach critical media studies courses where that's sort of what we do…we dissect the film and like, we're invested in like, sort of Marxist and Media Studies land we'll talk about like the political economy of something. So thinking not only about text and representation, but also what's happening outside of the texts, like who's getting paid? What corporation is partnered with them? Like what has Mattel done in terms of environmental destruction, destruction with plastic in terms of—- I just saw thread about like, Barbie’s relationship to the military, how there's been like military Barbies. And as somebody who was politicized by an anti-war movement I like really, really hate the US military. I mean, obviously, I would hope most people with good politics are not a fan of the US military. But um, I was like, ‘Oh, that one stings really hard.’ It's like yeah, like, obviously Mattel is gonna suck. They're just like breeding plastic dolls and like all of this stuff, but, um, so I like actually think that stuff is really important to name.And, and yeah, that personally like, I don't want a matriarchy, which is sort of what ends up happening in the Barbie movie. I don't want a Supreme Court at all, let alone like, yeah, so we're kind of regardless of gender. So I'm going to have all those critiques. It's totally legit the name those things.
But when we name those things about pop culture, as though pop culture is the place where we're expecting, like revolutionary guidance, I'm like, where are we getting our pleasure? Like, I mean—-that's a fair thing to push back against, like, maybe you should get your pleasure outside of corporate pop culture, like, okay, fair, but like, I grew up in the – like movies are cheap, like, uh, yeah, I think I kind of nodded to this in my newsletter, but somebody was comparing Barbie fervor to the Taylor Swift tour and I was like, those tickets were bananas. Like, I wasn't going to afford to go to Taylor Swift, but my movie theater down the street is literally $5 on Monday's. Like movies—not for not for people in destitute poverty—but for my working class family, movies were a thing we did and like, I get pleasure there. So like, I don't know, like was so that's… kind of tangent.
M: Well, I think like, you know, what, one of the things that I just always appreciate about the lens that you bring to critique is that there's this like, both/and which, like, really resonates with me where it's like, yeah, similarly, I did not go to Barbie thinking that I was going to get a critique of capitalism, or that I was going to get to see the trans like, representation that I wanted, even though one of the Barbies is played by a trans woman. And there's, like, obviously, so much queerness to like, Weird Barbie. And you know, and like, you do such a great job in your newsletter of like, pointing out the like, queer transness that actually is in the film. So like, if you all like, haven't, you know, read Raechel's newsletter, like, you can go and look at that, but even just one of the examples of like, the Kens in their dance scene, you know, basically have like, the white, blue and pink, like, on the background, which was like the trans colors. And so there is stuff happening in in much less like explicit ways than like the critique of patriarchy. But yeah, I'm just kind of like, I'm hard pressed to think of totally unproblematic media. Right?
And so when I'm like, in that place, I'm just like, Okay, well, why why is like the best or most radical option to opt out of, you know, media consumption. I mean, I don't know how, like, I'm sure there are people maybe that like, that have made that choice. I don't entirely know how, like, I could live without, like, television and movies. Because like, when I read, you know, my brain is on because I have literature background and like, so I'm never able to fully turn my brain off when I'm like reading a book, but like, when I'm watching a movie or watching a show, you know, and I'm also I know you and I both share a love of like trashy reality dating shows that bring us lots of joy, even as those in no way are critiquing the patriarchy or like problematic gendered norms and dynamics and like, if anything, are just like perpetuating them, you know, but it's like, it can be that both and.
And I just like, you know, I'm thinking about the importance of the feminist killjoy, like figure, you know, in and the importance of critique, like critique is absolutely important. I'm not saying like, we need to do away with critique. But I think in the same way that people on the left critiquing the film wanted more from the film. I am also just kind of am wanting more from critique than just, here are the reasons why this wasn't good. Or is like messed up. And I'm just like, I feel like when we enter from that space, we actually also miss out on like, for me, I'm just like, again, like, I just cannot think of a movie, like a mainstream movie. You know, the only other movie that comes to mind is maybe like, But I'm a Cheerleader. And even But I’m a Cheerleader, it wasn't explicit. It was like, you know, the critique of like gender and like, you know, sexuality and like homophobia. But to have a movie in which you have like Ryan Gosling playing Ken saying, you know, I basically lost interest in the patriarchy when I realized like, it wasn't actually really about horses. I'm just like, oh, my god like that is, you know – and we can be sad about that being the place that we're at that, you know, mainstream media, I totally get that. And also, when I think about, like, what it means to like, meet people where they're at, in their own coming into critical consciousness around oppression, like that movie is actually like, changing and blowing people's minds in ways that yes, might feel so basic to those of us who have had this language and this like lens for so much longer. But like, wow, I'm fucking pumped for those people.
R: Totally.
M: Because wow, like what you know, like, and, and yeah, they might be prescribing to a kind of white feminism that obviously we know, is problematic. And hopefully, you know, that is going to lead them to a place where they are having a more intersectional and understanding of oppression.
R: Yeah, yeah, that's the hope. And there's, in totally fair ways, there are arguments that say, like, sort of introductions that are to sort of that the introduction of white feminism is actually going to, like, do a harm rather than be like a baby step for some people sort of thing. So we got real possibility. And, yeah, and I'm still I'm still like, I'm still nodding along with, I think what you're saying and in total agreement with the, the hope, the, the possibility, the potentiality there.
Something else is like, for those of us who are beyond that 101 critique and have a much more intersectional understanding of how power operates and oppression it's, it's still an opportunity to help those people who are baby stepping their way into it are getting their first sort of taste of some of these ideas. There's, there's no harm. I mean, basically, I'm thinking about like, how the movie is such a good example of like, recuperation. And let me let me try to be articulate here. Like, it does, it does actually critique capitalism explicitly, like in one line, while also making tons of money for Mattel, like, there's like, they kind of make a joke or the Mattel CEO, like, there's all these things that they're trying to do, because they know, we don't live in a world where beyond 101 sort of feminism, or capitalism, you know, anti-capitalism is acceptable. But we do get a glimpse of the fact that culturally, we have slid enough for this to be in sort of a mainstream movie.
And I think we need to find ways to both celebrate that…And for me as a social movement scholar also like, I'm always like, the only reason this is a movie is because of social movements, like people, you know, on the streets have like, been, you know, Occupy Wall Street allowed the word capitalism to like even sort of like exist in our in our sphere, I think in in like, mainstream news media, like, things like that, obviously, the various feminist movement movements and anti-capitalist movements dating back centuries. So there's that. And then to say, like, look how far we've come that a 101 analysis even can be in the media, look how far we have to go if we actually want and care about, like, sort of Hollywood, reflecting our politics, which I don't even know if that's the outlet, we want to reflect our like, actual liberation, like goals and dreams, maybe maybe not.
But also like, this is also what happens in pop culture, like we see progress, whether it's, you know, L Word, whatever, like generation Q like, or like, okay, or the reboot of Sex in the City, where they're all like saying, the script just like woke robots, just like, woke thing here and another woke thing. So it's like, okay, yeah, like culture is responding to what's happening on the ground in totally ways that are not valuable. But like, let's, let's use media to have a better understanding of the political, social political landscape. Let's also understand that yeah, they're gonna do some of these things because they know it's gonna be profitable. But then to me…like I trust that Greta Gerwig is an artist, like I trust that she's like an artist and a feminist. I just do. Mattel is not. Warner Bros are not. And so like, it's like, okay, what I see is like a feminist like sort of like a 101 feminist probably in her real life, trying to make art in just like camp, hilarious, beautiful, gorgeous, amazing movie, visually. And a corporation being like, how can we profit off of that? Like, it's just, it's just messier than people want to make it. That was really long and windy. And I don't even know if it made sense.
M: No, no, it did. I mean, I was just like sitting here, like, just like taking it all in. Yeah, I think like, okay, there's so many things that you were saying there that I wanted to, like, continue to talk about. Yeah, I think like, I guess like, you know, for me, yes. Okay. So this is like, one of the things where I'm just like, you know, I want to draw like an analogy, I think between, like, how we've been talking about Barbie, and then like, how people within social movements talk about each other. Where, you know, I think of, like, an example of this was, like, you know, when we, when the Black Lives Matter uprising was happening. You know, there was this call, and I don't even know the origins of who put it out. But there's this call that like, I think, ended up just coming from a corporation, but started to circulate, asking, like everyone to, like post a black square to their Instagram and use like, the Black Lives Matter hashtag. And Black Lives Matter, like uses the Black Lives Matter hashtag as a way to, like, communicate with each other. And so what happened from this, like, you know, here's this way you can show solidarity, which, you know, then like, of course, got critiqued as just being performative. And I have, like, you know, a whole set of issues with like, what we mean by performative, which might be like, also talk about, but like, you know, basically what I saw happening, as people started to say, like, Hey, you're actually like, burying really important, like communication amongst like, folks on the ground by like, using this hashtag. And therefore, like, it just becoming like black squares, was like, you know, people on the left, like, who have more experience in the world of social justice, commenting on people's posts, basically, like shaming them for this and saying, like, this is just performative, ie, like, you're not actually doing anything beyond this, this is your way of trying to, like show solidarity, without actually putting the work in.
And like my sort of take on it was like, you know, that that was just like, actually the most ungenerous reading that we could have of that, and that folks, you know, who are starting to see anti-Black racism, and how that operates. And like white supremacy, culture, you know, we're just like, oh, this is like, a tangible way I can do something. Right. And was it a misstep? Yes, absolutely. But like, we, I don't know, I just, I am like, if you think that if you have a story of your own, like movement into activism, that doesn't have you making missteps. Like, I would love to fucking hear that. You know, because we don't have blueprints for like, like how to do the work that we're doing in the world. Yes, we can look at past social movements, but those past social movements also, you know, had their ways that they fucked shit up too.
R: Totally.
M: And what I see just being replicated here is actually just like white supremacy culture’s investment in perfectionism.
R: Yeah.
M: And that, like, we need to be the most radical, whatever the fuck that even means. In order to be valid in in doing this work, and like, you know, carla bergman and Nick Montgomery, you know, have a term for this in their book Joyful Militancy, which I just love. You know, they call this like, rigid radicalism, where it's like, we're just like replicating actually the very dynamics that we're critiquing within our smaller community and you know. And so I'm just like, Okay, if we take you know, what I see is happening and I'm sure I know you have seen also happening and I'm sure people listening to this have seen happening I just really like you know, the critique of Barbie as just like that on the larger scale of like, you know, this movie needing to be more intersectional. This like, you know, needing to be more critical. Oh, they made like a really fucked up joke. Like, we need to like write it off and and you know, and I think you know, for like Indigenous folks like, yes, obviously, like your choice to write this movie off because it made like that joke, like, absolutely fair. But more of what I'm seeing is actually like white folks like coming in, like making these critiques. And Raechel and I are both white people. And so, you know, this is like very much speaking to, you know, white leftist radicals who are showing up with this kind of like purity politics or like rigid radicalism. And and like and not a no and then it's just like critique, but there's no like map of like how we move forward and there's like no place, again, like, you know, for our joy to exist amongst also recognizing the problematics of something.
R: Yeah. Yeah. Hard agree. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's, that's a really great parallel. And I'm glad you brought in that term and that book, I love that book. I have to wrap soon. Do we have close – I mean, I think that's, that's kind of a beautiful place to conclude a discussion, critiques of Barbie, but any other are there last thoughts?
M: Maybe, you know, we could like share, like, a favorite a favorite moment from Barbie in a moment that maybe made us hopeful for, you know, even more like critical versions of this kind of like coming out into the world?
R: Yeah. Do you have one offhand on top of your head?
M: I mean, I think like, you know, for me even like, just, I, I fucking love Allan.
R: Yep.
M: So much. And, and maybe this like, comes back to the like, you know, what is Barbie sexuality and like, what, like, do they love the question of like, queerness, and like sexuality, like in the movie, and, you know, like, loving Allan and loving Weird Barbie Kate McKinnon, like, as, like, very queer figures to me in the movie, you know, and like being queer coded, even if it wasn't like, explicitly named, because the other thing I sort of think about is like, you know, I just, like, want us to live in a world where people like, don't even have to just be like, Hey, I'm queer! Hey I’m trans! O Hey, I'm, like, you know, ace! Or, Hey, I like this, you know, where, like, people's queerness can just, like, show up in ways that doesn't have to, like, involve, like, explicit disclosure, and the same way that straight people don't have to explicitly disclosed that they are straight, we just make that assumption. Yeah. And so, you know, like, coming back to Barbie, it's like, we know that Barbie is like, not interested in Ken. We don't know, like, who she is interested in sexually. But even like, that lack of focus to me, you know, and I have, I have some issues with, like, you know, people who aren't queer claiming the word queer and being like, oh, anything that's non-normative as queer because, like, you know, that word to me is like, it has a very precious like history and politics attached to it. But yeah, I just kind of loved that, like, sexuality didn't have to be like, named explicitly, you know, and then like, that, to me felt like exciting, because it's just like, I just want it to not be a big deal.
R: Yeah, yeah, totally, totally. Yeah, agreed, um, I, I, for something very concrete and specific about sort of, like, I guess, the explicit political conversation, I really was grateful for the line that like, the businessman says to Ken, when he's in the real world, and he's like, “Can I get, can't I just get a job because I'm a man?”And he's like, “It's actually kind of the opposite now.” And Ken is like “You must not be very good at patriarchy.” And the guy was like, “No, no, we're so good at it. We just have to, like, be more subtle about it” or… whatever he said, Yeah, that short exchange was both like, here's post #MeToo. I mean, we could talk about post, you know, early feminist movements, but I think that's really sort of a nod to like sort of the post #MeToo era like, actually, it kind of complicated this narrative that the real world was just this easy patriarchy and Barbieland was this easy not-patriarchy, because it actually like— that guy was right. Like he couldn't just get a job because he's a man. It is kind of more complicated than that now, and we are still nowhere near a liberatory world. For general or other otherwise. So I like that they like nodded to the fact that it's kind of a little more complicated. And also, there's still – patriarchy still doing just fine. Even though like women have more seats at the table like. Yeah, so I really appreciated that line.
And then the other stuff that just gave me hope is I love that you mentioned But I'm a Cheerleader. Like, I just love when we get like camp and fun in movies in general, like, it felt like the flat feet scene at the beach felt very John Waters, like everybody's like… this is just like, “ughhhh” puke. Like, it was amazing. Yeah, and again, like, I'll just do this was, I think, the longest section of my newsletter with like, sort of defending Barbie’s gender presentation and the femmeness of it all, it was just delightful to see like, just like the femmness being celebrated, I mean, so I'm, I'm going to, I'm going to be happy about that, too.
M: Yeah, and I really like love. I mean, I loved all of your newsletter, but that like, particular analysis of like, you know, people thinking, like, oh, this film is like, you know, celebrating femininity, when it's like, you know, actually trying to exist in the world with like, that level of high femmeness, you know, in particular, as like two humans who both identify as femme, you know, who have been in academia, like actually, like, presenting in the world in that way, isn't actually like, celebrated. And, you know, and there's so many still, like, stories that are so deeply like misogynistic and femmephobic that, you know, like, we get read as, you know, based on choosing to have like, long fake nails and you know, wearing lipstick and like wearing dresses and whatever. So, yeah, for me, I do love the reading of femmeness, you know, which again, is something that I know that both of us particularly associate with queerness you know, I do think that like, seeing that actually be celebrated is actually like more radical than folks have been giving it credit for.
R: Right, totally.
M: Yeah, cool. Um, wow, we'll wrap up there. Thank you. I was like, Yeah, I just feel like so excited to go and like write my newsletter now because I just our conversations are always so like, make my brain…
R: Very generative!
M: Yeah. So excited. So yeah, thanks for chatting with me!
